PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip!

Change Page: 12 > | Showing page 1 of 2, messages 1 to 20 of 26 - powered by ASPPlayground.NET Forum Trial Version
Author Message
joeorc

  • Total Posts : 187
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 11/2/2010
  • Status: offline
PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 9:26 AM ( #1 )
Many People Have been wondering How will, Sony be able to Offer a powerful chipset in the PS4 ,and a Powerful but yet make it for the consumer with a price friendly "affordable price" and make the system Powerful and robust at low cost to the consumer. Many think there will be a trade off. Well yes and No. there is a way to do it and that is 3D stacked TSV chipset's. Its one of the way's and there is more reason to believe in fact its a Most likely is the direction that Sony is taking with the design of the chipset in the next Playstation Living room console.

1st. lets look at the recent Head of design for Playstation systems and what he stated early Last Jan!

Masaaki Tsuruta, CTO of Sony Computer Entertainment Masaaki Tsuruta, CTO of Sony Computer Entertainment, says that the company is working on a system-on-chip (SoC) to underpin the product for "seven to 10 years".


The PlayStation 3 will be at least seven years old by the time its successor arrives, but is generally considered to have lasted longer than was originally expected. A firm launch for the fourth generation console - not to be called PlayStation 4 - was pushed out again late last year.


Its designed-in longevity is largely a matter of economics. The Cell Broadband Engine that powered the PS3 cost $400m to develop;


"the main SoC for the incoming console is likely to be a 3D stack incorporating thru-silicon-via technology and could be the first $1bn hardware design project."


http://mandetech.com/2012...aki-tsuruta-interview/


So right there the Head CTO states the Most likely choice is 3D Stacked TSV, why would he say that, well there is very good reason.


What is Sony doing with SCE system chipset's right now?


here is what type of chip's they are making right now for their Game systems


Sony’s PS Vita Uses Chip-on-Chip SiP – 3D, but not 3D
Posted on July 5, 2012 by Chipworks


Inside we found the usual set of wireless chips, motion sensors, and memory, but the key to the increased performance of the PS Vita is the Sony CXD5315GG processor, a quad- core ARM Cortex-A9 device with an embedded Imagination SGX543MP4+ quad-core GPU. Above I said that we found memory, but actually the only discrete memory that we found on the motherboard was 4 GB of Toshiba flash; and Sony’s specification states that there is 512 MB (4 Gb) regular RAM, plus 128 MB (1 Gb) VRAM (video RAM).  In a phone that would tell me that there is memory in a package-on-package (PoP) configuration, mobile SDRAM in the top part and the processor in the bottom part. However, when we took the part off the board and did a set of x-rays, the side view proved me wrong – it’s a stack, and the close-up shows that there appear to be five dies in there, a thick die at the base, a thinner one immediately on top and three smaller die on top of that.  The second die down could be a spacer, since there don’t seem to bond wires going to it.


"This immediately led us to speculate – if the second die up is the VRAM, is it wide I/O DRAM, and is it using through-silicon vias (TSVs)? Time for a real cross-section to check that out, and almost predictably we were disappointed:"






This type of face-to-face connection showed up back in 2006 in the original Sony PSP, and Toshiba had dubbed it “semi-embedded DRAM”, now they are calling it “Stacked Chip SoC”. The ball pitch is an impressive ~45 µm, almost as tight as TI’s copper pillars, but they are staggered to achieve 40-µm pitch. So what are the five chips that are in the stack? At the base we have the processor chip; face to face with it is a Samsung 1-Gb wide I/O SDRAM; and the top three dies comprise two Samsung 2-Gb mobile DDR2 SDRAMs, separated by a spacer die, and conventionally wire-bonded. The base die is ~250 µm thick, and the others ~100 – 120 µm. When we look at the die photos of the processor and the 1-Gb memory, we can see that they are purposely laid out for the stacked-chip configuration, since in the centres of both is an array of matching bond pads.






Close examination reveals that there are 1080 pads in two blocks of 540 (2 sub-blocks of 45 rows of 6 pads), so likely 2 x 512 bit I/O operation, possibly sub-divided into 4 x 128.


So why would Sony do this?


"Last year at ISSCC Samsung described a similar wide I/O DRAM using TSVs [1], claiming a data bandwidth of 12.8 Gb/s, four times the bandwidth of an equivalent LPDDR2 part.  I doubt that the authors expected their design to be in a volume consumer device before the end of the year, but that seems to be what happened!"


By combining the processor with the different memories in the same package in the Vita, Sony and Toshiba have produced one of the few true system-in-package (SiP) parts that we have seen. And I would call it 3D, even though industry convention is now restricting that term to TSV-based parts – so it’s not 3D, in our current argot.


http://www.chipworks.com/...hip-sip-3d-but-not-3d/


Next Part The Development From the Cell to what the PS4 chip can be designed forward.

joeorc

  • Total Posts : 187
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 11/2/2010
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 10:07 AM ( #2 )
So the Last Post showed the direction Sony expect's to take with the Next Playstation Living room Console system, what type of chip design have Sony been using, and what type of chipset's Sony has been using in Playstation Systems recently. So Moving forward what could we expect, the results of such a chip design in the Next playstation?

Next Part The Development From the Cell to what the PS4 chip can be designed forward. 


we first have to revisit where Sony , IBM and Toshiba started this together at STI when they set out this type of design forward.


Many Gamer's Have quite the Misconception about the Cell it seem's and Many today still Have it seem's still do not quite understand Sony, IBM, and Toshiba's Direction and development for such a type of chip in a Game system. Many Gamer's think the Cell failed, on One hand yes they are right, but on many cases the Cell not only succeeded in what the companies set out to do, but also was they exact type of designs at the front of the way chips were going to be put into consumer electronic's in the future at the Time.


The Cell Processor is a Hybrid Multi-core CPU/GPGPU type of chip design.


The chief architect of the Cell Synergistic Processor, Dr. H. Peter Hofstee:


Do you have an analogy for how data is manipulated by the Cell Broadband Engine? How is the Cell's process of internal data manipulation different from general purpose processors?


Stanford's Bill Dally has a nice analogy that explains the memory wall problem processors have run into. Imagine doing a plumbing project ... you start and you see you need a pipe ... so you drive to the store ... come back with a pipe, and you discover you need a fitting ... so you drive to the store ... come back with a fitting ... and discover you need solder ... (etc.) very inefficient! When microprocessors started memory was just a few processor cycles away ... similar to having all you need in the cupboard. Today, main (DRAM) memory is hundreds of processors cycles away ... and getting things is like a drive across town to the plumbing store. What do you need to do when your supply is far away? Make a shopping list! This is exactly what the SPEs in Cell enable you to do. Instead of getting data from main memory right when you discover it is needed, you construct a list of what you need, and kick off a (DMA) processor that gets it for you. You can even create multiple lists, both of supplies you need, and stuff you're done with and want to put out there, so that you can always keep working.


http://www.gamezero.com/t...ws/dr_h_peter_hofstee/


Cell's chief architect, Dr. H. Peter Hofstee, advised us not to characterize the SPEs as specialized co-processors, dedicated to occasional tasks such as graphics or arithmetic. In that story, we compared SPEs to the co-processors of old, and characterized them as subordinate to the principal processing element of the Cell system, the Power Processing Element (PPE), based on the existing PowerPC architecture. But in doing so, Dr. Hofstee warned, we tended toward a trap into which others have fallen, in which the role of the SPEs appears to be reduced in importance. More than just co-processors, Dr. Hofstee said, the SPEs are fully-capable processing units that are capable not only of running threads spawned off from a main program, but also running "single-core," scalar programs in their entirety - not only multithreading, but multitasking.


"But also, in making that distinction, Dr. Hofstee wanted to make certain we recognized the Cell as a powerful general-purpose processor. "[Cell] is already fairly general-purpose, even today," he said, "but of course, over time, we expect it to go even further. Over time, [whether] it is going to become the new general-purpose standard, that is to be determined." In characterizing the general-purpose nature of Cell, he told us that development systems used by IBM today are running Linux, and that general-purpose applications are being developed using a suite of Linux-based tools."


http://www.tomshardware.c...s/20050830_185425.html
Dr. H. Peter Hofstee: was right!

http://www.lanl.gov/orgs/...l_Hofstee_Non_Conf.pdf


So where does the Cell fit in with the development of the PS4? or why would or should i really Care?


Its simple, the development chip design's for Consumer electronic product's such as Game console using this type of chip designs allows cheaper cost for the consumer without the loss in performance needed for the games that are needing very robust hardware to run such game software application's.


The recent trends in chip design is moving forward in consumer electronic's for not just game console's
but from Smar TV's and Smart Phones and Tablets to even Topset boxes such as DVD player's and Media streaming box's.


Next Sony's Recent Patent, and what it has in common with the rest of the direction of Chip designs in Consumer Electronic's.
<message edited by joeorc on Thursday, January 03, 2013 10:13 AM>
TheMART at Xboxkings

  • Total Posts : 2521
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 3/30/2007
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 10:12 AM ( #3 )
Lol wall of text yo...

Got just one thing to say basically. The rumors about the current devkits of PSOrbis/PS4 were talking about a rather weak AMD CPU. But then again, when I look at what they recently did constructing the PSVita, Sony did a really good job.

They made very accessible hardware, devs say it is pretty easy to get the games on compared to PS3 etc. The quad core CPU and the quad core GPU give insane power in the hands. The usage of the 512MB RAM and 128MB VRam certainly give a smooth experience, voice chat like PS3 can't do and more.

Knowing that Sony is a hardware company at heart, I hope they pull some magic on inventive usage of hardware for PSOrbis like they did with PSVita.


joeorc

  • Total Posts : 187
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 11/2/2010
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 10:18 AM ( #4 )
TheMART at Xboxkings


Lol wall of text yo...

Got just one thing to say basically. The rumors about the current devkits of PSOrbis/PS4 were talking about a rather weak AMD CPU. But then again, when I look at what they recently did constructing the PSVita, Sony did a really good job.

They made very accessible hardware, devs say it is pretty easy to get the games on compared to PS3 etc. The quad core CPU and the quad core GPU give insane power in the hands. The usage of the 512MB RAM and 128MB VRam certainly give a smooth experience, voice chat like PS3 can't do and more.

Knowing that Sony is a hardware company at heart, I hope they pull some magic on inventive usage of hardware for PSOrbis like they did with PSVita.



yea LOL i Know it is a wall of text, but it's to show the progression on how its developing forward. Im and Engineer so to show the development it's going to be long winded if you want to be accurate in the assessment of How it will perform or it's development.

what's important is what this development can result in, performance  and cost and how well the system can handle the new advancement's in software tool chain's and API's that will result from such designs.


remember just Because Sony may be using a "Base" CPU does not mean it's going to be exactly as it's listed in PC's remember this is a consumer Electronic, not a PC in its design, thus if in fact that Sony is going to indeed use a 3D stacked TSV, as they have stated, which the PSVita uses a form of that stacking, think about this that the PSVita in on a chip level is getting over 12 GB/sec bandwidth on a chip level on a freaking Handheld! what was the recent Bandwidth of the Nintendo WiiU on a chip level?

think about that for a sec!
<message edited by joeorc on Thursday, January 03, 2013 10:24 AM>
joeorc

  • Total Posts : 187
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 11/2/2010
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 10:43 AM ( #5 )
which Also bring's up my Next point of this Post Sony's recent Patent:

Sony Computer Entertainment America Inc.  Graphics processing in a computer graphics apparatus having architecturally dissimilar first and second graphics processing units (GPU) is disclosed. Graphics input is produced in a format having an architecture-neutral display list. One or more instructions in the architecture neutral display list are translated into GPU instructions in an architecture specific format for an active GPU of the first and second GPU. 


http://appft.uspto.gov/ne...&RS=DN/20120320068

remember this lil chip?

SpursEngine SpursEngine is a microprocessor from Toshiba built as a media oriented coprocessor, designed for 3D- and video processing in consumer electronics such as set-top boxes and computers. The SpursEngine processor is also known as the Quad Core HD processor. Announced 20 September 2007.
The SpursEngine is a stream processor powered by four Synergistic Processing Elements (SPE), also used in the Cell processor featured in Sony PlayStation 3. These processing elements are fed by on chip H.264 and MPEG-2 codecs and controlled by an off die host CPU, connected by an on chip PCIe controller (in contrast to the Cell processor which has a on chip CPU (the PPE) doing similar work). To enable smoother interaction between the host and the SpursEngine Toshiba also integrated a simple proprietary 32-bit control core. The SpursEngine employs dedicated XDR DRAM as its working memory.
The SpursEngine is designed to work at much lower frequencies than the Cell and Toshiba has also optimized the circuit layout of the SPEs to reduce the size by 30%.
 The resulting chip consumes 10-20 W of power.
The SpursEngine is accessible to the developer from a device driver developed for Windows and Linux systems. Software supporting the SpursEngine is limited and is primarily in the realm of video editing and encoding.


Sony could very well do the following:


Multi-Core CPU/GPGPU+ Small GPU+ Spur's Engine All on the same Die Package on a 3D stacked TSV!


that way Sony could have backward compatibility on the PS4 right on the CPU/GPGPU without Needing to go off chip level to a dedicated GPU off Bridge .


if you Look at the recent Moves in processor designs in such as Arm Holding's.


big.little processor


http://eetimes.com/electr...-at-ISSCC?pageNumber=0 


Now look at AMD's and Intel's recent Movement in their design's:

In the past week, both AMD and Intel have given us a tantalizing peek at their next-generation neuromorphic (brain-like) computer chips. These chips, it is hoped, will provide brain-like performance (i.e. processing power and massive parallelism way beyond current CPUs) while consuming minimal amounts of power.
After announcing last year at its Fusion Developer Summit that its Heterogeneous System Architecture (HSA) would be an open, architecture-agnostic spec that could be implemented by anyone (including Intel), AMD last week announced that its future APUs will feature an ARM Cortex-A5 core to implement TrustZone, ARM Holdings’ security and DRM solution. AMD also announced that has teamed up with ARM, Imagination Technologies, MediaTek, and Texas Instruments to form the HSA Foundation. The idea is that this non-profit consortium will try to coalesce around a single HSA specification, primarily so that developers can create software that makes full use of the various flavors of compute power available to them.
It isn’t too crazy to think that a future AMD (or Texas Instruments) chip might have a few GPU cores, a few x86 CPU cores, and thousands of tiny ARM cores, all working in perfect, parallel, neuromorphic harmony — as long as the software toolchain is good enough that you don’t have to be some kind of autist to use all of those resources efficiently.
http://www.extremetech.co...igns-a-brain-on-a-chip







<message edited by joeorc on Thursday, January 03, 2013 10:47 AM>
TheMART at Xboxkings

  • Total Posts : 2521
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 3/30/2007
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 10:49 AM ( #6 )
Lots of guessing what they'll stack on top of eachother in chips....

Sony have their Playstation days at the end of February, and my guess is we'll hear more about PSOrbis at that event. Probably no specs yet, announcement, some game footage (lets hope not the CGI they did with Killzone 2 back then) and specs revealed at E3 2013. Just 5 to 6 months to go till E3...


-Mezzo-

  • Total Posts : 2750
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 12/6/2008
  • Location: Here.
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:06 AM ( #7 )
Why are you looking into this so much ( I feel like it's a waste of time ), i mean i am as excited about PS4 as the next guy, but i'm just gonna go buy it the day it comes out.

I'm Trolling For 'Tears'
joeorc

  • Total Posts : 187
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 11/2/2010
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:07 AM ( #8 )
TheMART at Xboxkings


Lots of guessing what they'll stack on top of eachother in chips....

Sony have their Playstation days at the end of February, and my guess is we'll hear more about PSOrbis at that event. Probably no specs yet, announcement, some game footage (lets hope not the CGI they did with Killzone 2 back then) and specs revealed at E3 2013. Just 5 to 6 months to go till E3...



It's true about  the guess, but what i have showed is not like its not a very valid guess, as for the CGI footage for killzone 2, remember that was a "Target render" and they came pretty d@mn close to that.
in my opinion quite a bit closer than many people thought they would have ever attain. That is for sure in my opinion.
joeorc

  • Total Posts : 187
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 11/2/2010
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:19 AM ( #9 )
-Mezzo-


Why are you looking into this so much ( I feel like it's a waste of time ), i mean i am as excited about PS4 as the next guy, but i'm just gonna go buy it the day it comes out.
 


Im and Engineer, its no more of a waste of time than Playing a game! 


an by having a good design, it can show you a glimpse of what the system would be capable of. despite many people who has said that the PS3 was a poor design for game's, the truth of the matter is its was indeed a good design for a game console, that does not mean there is no flaw's in the design, but understanding those flaws will allow the design for your software to be better with a solution to a problem that may arise. 


<message edited by joeorc on Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:20 AM>
Pandamobile

  • Total Posts : 1514
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 5/18/2009
  • Location: Oshawa, Ontario
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:24 AM ( #10 )
Just pray that Sony learned from their shortcomings with the PS3. No one wants to spend half the generation trying to figure out how the damn thing works again.
joeorc

  • Total Posts : 187
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 11/2/2010
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 12:19 PM ( #11 )
Pandamobile


Just pray that Sony learned from their shortcomings with the PS3. No one wants to spend half the generation trying to figure out how the damn thing works again.



It was not really , That people had a problem learning How it worked so much as the API tool's were no where near as well developed as they needed for them to be, this time like the PSVita show's Sony has solid implemented tool chains and API's to offset that learning curve that Many developer's had at the start of this generation due to the fact that Multi-core systems design for games is still not the standard yet. that How ever is in fact changing and very soon most every chipset will be by default Multi-core pretty much in every consumer electronic's for Media based consumption, be that audio, video or Gaming, even Application's that are Non Game will soon follow.


FAT MAN GO BOOM

  • Total Posts : 14220
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2/15/2008
  • Location: 3rd Planet From the Sun
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 12:25 PM ( #12 )
joeorc


which Also bring's up my Next point of this Post Sony's recent Patent:

Sony Computer Entertainment America Inc.  Graphics processing in a computer graphics apparatus having architecturally dissimilar first and second graphics processing units (GPU) is disclosed. Graphics input is produced in a format having an architecture-neutral display list. One or more instructions in the architecture neutral display list are translated into GPU instructions in an architecture specific format for an active GPU of the first and second GPU. 


http://appft.uspto.gov/ne...&RS=DN/20120320068

remember this lil chip?

SpursEngine SpursEngine is a microprocessor from Toshiba built as a media oriented coprocessor, designed for 3D- and video processing in consumer electronics such as set-top boxes and computers. The SpursEngine processor is also known as the Quad Core HD processor. Announced 20 September 2007.
The SpursEngine is a stream processor powered by four Synergistic Processing Elements (SPE), also used in the Cell processor featured in Sony PlayStation 3. These processing elements are fed by on chip H.264 and MPEG-2 codecs and controlled by an off die host CPU, connected by an on chip PCIe controller (in contrast to the Cell processor which has a on chip CPU (the PPE) doing similar work). To enable smoother interaction between the host and the SpursEngine Toshiba also integrated a simple proprietary 32-bit control core. The SpursEngine employs dedicated XDR DRAM as its working memory.
The SpursEngine is designed to work at much lower frequencies than the Cell and Toshiba has also optimized the circuit layout of the SPEs to reduce the size by 30%.
The resulting chip consumes 10-20 W of power.
The SpursEngine is accessible to the developer from a device driver developed for Windows and Linux systems. Software supporting the SpursEngine is limited and is primarily in the realm of video editing and encoding.


Sony could very well do the following:


Multi-Core CPU/GPGPU+ Small GPU+ Spur's Engine All on the same Die Package on a 3D stacked TSV!


that way Sony could have backward compatibility on the PS4 right on the CPU/GPGPU without Needing to go off chip level to a dedicated GPU off Bridge .


if you Look at the recent Moves in processor designs in such as Arm Holding's.


big.little processor


http://eetimes.com/electr...-at-ISSCC?pageNumber=0 


Now look at AMD's and Intel's recent Movement in their design's:

In the past week, both AMD and Intel have given us a tantalizing peek at their next-generation neuromorphic (brain-like) computer chips. These chips, it is hoped, will provide brain-like performance (i.e. processing power and massive parallelism way beyond current CPUs) while consuming minimal amounts of power.
After announcing last year at its Fusion Developer Summit that its Heterogeneous System Architecture (HSA) would be an open, architecture-agnostic spec that could be implemented by anyone (including Intel), AMD last week announced that its future APUs will feature an ARM Cortex-A5 core to implement TrustZone, ARM Holdings’ security and DRM solution. AMD also announced that has teamed up with ARM, Imagination Technologies, MediaTek, and Texas Instruments to form the HSA Foundation. The idea is that this non-profit consortium will try to coalesce around a single HSA specification, primarily so that developers can create software that makes full use of the various flavors of compute power available to them.
It isn’t too crazy to think that a future AMD (or Texas Instruments) chip might have a few GPU cores, a few x86 CPU cores, and thousands of tiny ARM cores, all working in perfect, parallel, neuromorphic harmony — as long as the software toolchain is good enough that you don’t have to be some kind of autist to use all of those resources efficiently.
http://www.extremetech.co...igns-a-brain-on-a-chip










Very kool information thanks for posting it ... I have a question or two though and you may know the answer...


Is Sony and Toshiba heading up the development of this chip? Does that mean AMD mass producing it or... are they helping it the development of it??

Also the rumors I know they are rumors are that the dev kits for the ps4 were using a amd A10 APU... If the Rumor is true could the AMD APU a stand in for this chip till it is made...





"Evil People Suck"
ZombieNinjaPanda

  • Total Posts : 11088
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 6/23/2008
  • Location: Uranus
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 12:28 PM ( #13 )
joeorc


-Mezzo-


Why are you looking into this so much ( I feel like it's a waste of time ), i mean i am as excited about PS4 as the next guy, but i'm just gonna go buy it the day it comes out.
 


Im and Engineer, its no more of a waste of time than Playing a game! 


an by having a good design, it can show you a glimpse of what the system would be capable of. despite many people who has said that the PS3 was a poor design for game's, the truth of the matter is its was indeed a good design for a game console, that does not mean there is no flaw's in the design, but understanding those flaws will allow the design for your software to be better with a solution to a problem that may arise. 






I'm trying to find it for you, recently read a developer describing what it was like having to develop games for every single console. He described the Ps3 as being (in my own summary of his words) one of the worst consoles to develop for. Said that with the Ps2 had like a 2 inch thick manual just to learn how to use it, with the Ps3 it was 10 times that. I'll try and find it for you.



Here it is, I don't think it's the full thing, and it's not the pastebin version.

http://gamingbolt.com/dev...-ps3-being-the-hardest
<message edited by ZombieNinjaPanda on Thursday, January 03, 2013 12:30 PM>

FAT MAN GO BOOM

  • Total Posts : 14220
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2/15/2008
  • Location: 3rd Planet From the Sun
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 12:33 PM ( #14 )
ZombieNinjaPanda


joeorc


-Mezzo-


Why are you looking into this so much ( I feel like it's a waste of time ), i mean i am as excited about PS4 as the next guy, but i'm just gonna go buy it the day it comes out.
 


Im and Engineer, its no more of a waste of time than Playing a game! 


an by having a good design, it can show you a glimpse of what the system would be capable of. despite many people who has said that the PS3 was a poor design for game's, the truth of the matter is its was indeed a good design for a game console, that does not mean there is no flaw's in the design, but understanding those flaws will allow the design for your software to be better with a solution to a problem that may arise. 






I'm trying to find it for you, recently read a developer describing what it was like having to develop games for every single console. He described the Ps3 as being (in my own summary of his words) one of the worst consoles to develop for. Said that with the Ps2 had like a 2 inch thick manual just to learn how to use it, with the Ps3 it was 10 times that. I'll try and find it for you.



Here it is, I don't think it's the full thing, and it's not the pastebin version.

http://gamingbolt.com/dev...-ps3-being-the-hardest





That is why sony was moving to an X86 architect??  No??


IF there was one thing that hurt the PS3 the most it would have to be the difficulty of programming... and you could see it in games like orange box and Skyrim...


that said... if MS and PS are both X86 I think the one to benefit from this most would be developers and the PC no???

"Evil People Suck"
joeorc

  • Total Posts : 187
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 11/2/2010
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 12:53 PM ( #15 )
FAT MAN GO BOOM


joeorc


which Also bring's up my Next point of this Post Sony's recent Patent:

Sony Computer Entertainment America Inc.  Graphics processing in a computer graphics apparatus having architecturally dissimilar first and second graphics processing units (GPU) is disclosed. Graphics input is produced in a format having an architecture-neutral display list. One or more instructions in the architecture neutral display list are translated into GPU instructions in an architecture specific format for an active GPU of the first and second GPU. 


http://appft.uspto.gov/ne...&RS=DN/20120320068

remember this lil chip?

SpursEngine SpursEngine is a microprocessor from Toshiba built as a media oriented coprocessor, designed for 3D- and video processing in consumer electronics such as set-top boxes and computers. The SpursEngine processor is also known as the Quad Core HD processor. Announced 20 September 2007.
The SpursEngine is a stream processor powered by four Synergistic Processing Elements (SPE), also used in the Cell processor featured in Sony PlayStation 3. These processing elements are fed by on chip H.264 and MPEG-2 codecs and controlled by an off die host CPU, connected by an on chip PCIe controller (in contrast to the Cell processor which has a on chip CPU (the PPE) doing similar work). To enable smoother interaction between the host and the SpursEngine Toshiba also integrated a simple proprietary 32-bit control core. The SpursEngine employs dedicated XDR DRAM as its working memory.
The SpursEngine is designed to work at much lower frequencies than the Cell and Toshiba has also optimized the circuit layout of the SPEs to reduce the size by 30%.
The resulting chip consumes 10-20 W of power.
The SpursEngine is accessible to the developer from a device driver developed for Windows and Linux systems. Software supporting the SpursEngine is limited and is primarily in the realm of video editing and encoding.


Sony could very well do the following:


Multi-Core CPU/GPGPU+ Small GPU+ Spur's Engine All on the same Die Package on a 3D stacked TSV!


that way Sony could have backward compatibility on the PS4 right on the CPU/GPGPU without Needing to go off chip level to a dedicated GPU off Bridge .


if you Look at the recent Moves in processor designs in such as Arm Holding's.


big.little processor


http://eetimes.com/electr...-at-ISSCC?pageNumber=0 


Now look at AMD's and Intel's recent Movement in their design's:

In the past week, both AMD and Intel have given us a tantalizing peek at their next-generation neuromorphic (brain-like) computer chips. These chips, it is hoped, will provide brain-like performance (i.e. processing power and massive parallelism way beyond current CPUs) while consuming minimal amounts of power.
After announcing last year at its Fusion Developer Summit that its Heterogeneous System Architecture (HSA) would be an open, architecture-agnostic spec that could be implemented by anyone (including Intel), AMD last week announced that its future APUs will feature an ARM Cortex-A5 core to implement TrustZone, ARM Holdings’ security and DRM solution. AMD also announced that has teamed up with ARM, Imagination Technologies, MediaTek, and Texas Instruments to form the HSA Foundation. The idea is that this non-profit consortium will try to coalesce around a single HSA specification, primarily so that developers can create software that makes full use of the various flavors of compute power available to them.
It isn’t too crazy to think that a future AMD (or Texas Instruments) chip might have a few GPU cores, a few x86 CPU cores, and thousands of tiny ARM cores, all working in perfect, parallel, neuromorphic harmony — as long as the software toolchain is good enough that you don’t have to be some kind of autist to use all of those resources efficiently.
http://www.extremetech.co...igns-a-brain-on-a-chip










Very kool information thanks for posting it ... I have a question or two though and you may know the answer...


Is Sony and Toshiba heading up the development of this chip? Does that mean AMD mass producing it or... are they helping it the development of it??

Also the rumors I know they are rumors are that the dev kits for the ps4 were using a amd A10 APU... If the Rumor is true could the AMD APU a stand in for this chip till it is made...
 


i think its most likely a collaborative effort by AMD, Sony IBM Toshiba and other companies, here is the reason it most likely confirms it, One the CPU/GPGPU chip in the PSVita is STI again like they did when they made the Cell, but unlike the Cell there will most likely be more companies involved and AMD is working with ARM Holding's, So i would not doubt that may be the Case for the new PS4. Arm Holding's design element's are being PUT INTO CURRENT CHIP DESIGNS!


Example: by now you have seen this put forth over the internet:


Sony Playstation 4 will be an x86 CPU with an AMD GPU!
http://semiaccurate.com/2...-amd-gpu/#.UOXQuuT7LQU

as i have shown just because Sony may use AMD does not mean it's the same type of AMD PC CPU/GPGPU that you would find in PC's, it just means they may be using it as the Basis for the design.

for instance the A10 review was here

http://www.techradar.com/...0-5800k-1103125/review

now look at this:

AMD 2013 APUs To Include ARM Cortex-A5 Processor For TrustZone Capabilities

http://www.anandtech.com/...trustzone-capabilities

Standing is for the final chip is not really standing in if it's going to have the same core chipset but with Enhancement's for GPU acceleration in a 3D stacked TSV!


joeorc

  • Total Posts : 187
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 11/2/2010
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 1:01 PM ( #16 )
"That is why sony was moving to an X86 architect??  No??

IF there was one thing that hurt the PS3 the most it would have to be the difficulty of programming... and you could see it in games like orange box and Skyrim...

that said... if MS and PS are both X86 I think the one to benefit from this most would be developers and the PC no??? "



what you have to remember is the xbox360 and the PS3 are Power based Processor's they are not x86!

and i would say what hurt the PS3 the most was the game engines 3rd party companies used were not designed for a system design like's of which was the PS3's design. the 3rd party companies would have to A: invest into their own game engine and make changes and maybe even have to hire more manpower, or use it as is, and thus you know the answer to that.  B: you really could not blame them for it though in my opinion because, its resources they would have to spend that they may not have, and Time to production that they would not have. Thus with the recent trends in chip design anyway Sony's not having to produce such a chip design with STI as the only one's making such chip designs because AMD and even intel ,TI,Marvel etc. are all doing just that this time anyway. Sony did not go with MIPS inside the PSVita, like the orig. PSP

they went with Arm Holding's Cortex A9' design. in alot of ways the cell and Arm Holding's Hybrid BIG LITTLE has quite a bit in common. The PS4 is just following the trend in Consumer electronic's chip designs.


Moving to x86, is not a problem moving to power or vice versa remember you have to program for what ever design you are working with , the hardware does not conform to you , you conform to the constraints of the hardware.


the Tool Chains, and API's are along with skill and experience of your Teams are mainly what matter's. that and of course Time and budget LOL

<message edited by joeorc on Thursday, January 03, 2013 1:15 PM>
FAT MAN GO BOOM

  • Total Posts : 14220
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2/15/2008
  • Location: 3rd Planet From the Sun
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 1:11 PM ( #17 )
joeorc


"That is why sony was moving to an X86 architect??  No??

IF there was one thing that hurt the PS3 the most it would have to be the difficulty of programming... and you could see it in games like orange box and Skyrim...

that said... if MS and PS are both X86 I think the one to benefit from this most would be developers and the PC no??? "



what you have to remember is the xbox360 and the PS3 are Power based Processor's they are not x86!


Moving to x86, is not a problem moving to power or vice versa remember you have to program for what ever design you are working with , the hardware does not conform to you , you conform to the constraints of the hardware.


the Tool Chains, and API's are along with skill and experience of your Teams are mainly what matter's. that and of course Time and budget LOL





Thank you for the information very much... it is all very kool to learn and talk about...


cheers great thread...

"Evil People Suck"
joeorc

  • Total Posts : 187
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 11/2/2010
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Thursday, January 03, 2013 1:22 PM ( #18 )
you are very welcome, the advancement for mobile chipsets now has gone from barely able to handle advanced GPU functionality to DirectX 11+,shader Model 4+!

example: This is a Mobile smartphone and Tablet GPU SOC!

"Next generation consumer devices based on the Mali-T658 GPU will address the growing user expectation for slick user interfaces and desktop-class graphics," said Pete Hutton, general manager, Media Processing Division, ARM. "Intuitive user interfaces will mean that consumers can access the full functionality of their connected devices, for richer user experiences. This includes HD gaming and new compute-intensive applications, such as augmented reality."

Did you catch that key description desktop-class graphics? According to ARM, the GPU supports a wide range of graphics and compute APIs including Microsoft DirectX 11, Khronos OpenGL ES, OpenVG, Khronos OpenCL, Google Renderscript and Microsoft DirectCompute. That's right: a "superphone" GPU capable of rendering DirectX 11 graphics!

Thursday in a press release ARM said the new GPU has been designed to work with the Cortex-A7 and Cortex-A15 processors either in standalone modes, or when they're combined in big.LITTLE processing mode.
http://www.tomshardware.c...-big.LITTLE,13952.html
Remember Sony's new Patent?
Sony Computer Entertainment America Inc.  Graphics processing in a computer graphics apparatus having architecturally dissimilar first and second graphics processing units (GPU) is disclosed. Graphics input is produced in a format having an architecture-neutral display list. One or more instructions in the architecture neutral display list are translated into GPU instructions in an architecture specific format for an active GPU of the first and second GPU.  






-Mezzo-

  • Total Posts : 2750
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 12/6/2008
  • Location: Here.
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Saturday, January 19, 2013 3:54 PM ( #19 )
With one Developer confirming after another, I think it's safe to say that PS4 will be the most powerful 'Console' of Next-Gen.

I'm Trolling For 'Tears'
Kon

  • Total Posts : 9937
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 12/13/2010
  • Location: Brasil
  • Status: offline
Re:PS4 Chip 3D stacked TSV! = one Hell of a Multi-Tasking Monster of a chip! - Saturday, January 19, 2013 4:07 PM ( #20 )
-Mezzo-


With one Developer confirming after another, I think it's safe to say that PS4 will be the most powerful 'Console' of Next-Gen.

Pretty sure the Xbox will be the most powerful.



N4G Adventure Part 1 - screw it
Change Page: 12 > | Showing page 1 of 2, messages 1 to 20 of 26 - powered by ASPPlayground.NET Forum Trial Version

Jump to:

Current active users
There are 0 members and 3 guests.
Icon Legend and Permission
  • New Messages
  • No New Messages
  • Hot Topic w/ New Messages
  • Hot Topic w/o New Messages
  • Locked w/ New Messages
  • Locked w/o New Messages
  • Read Message
  • Post New Thread
  • Reply to message
  • Post New Poll
  • Submit Vote
  • Post reward post
  • Delete my own posts
  • Delete my own threads
  • Rate post

© 2000-2009 ASPPlayground.NET Forum Version 3.6