What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup?

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Father Murder X

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What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup? - Friday, March 29, 2013 6:01 AM ( #1 )
If the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu setup (or dual core gpu) what type of advantage if any would that be for developers? What would it mean for multi-plats? Would it trump the Ps4? What are the advantages/disadvantages of going this route? Again this is just rumor about it having sometype of dual gpu/dual core gpu setup.But from the start the rumors stated that they were developing their own gpu and not going with anything that was already out. Would this make the system harder to program for?
<message edited by Father Murder X on Friday, March 29, 2013 6:03 AM>
Bladesfist

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 6:23 AM ( #2 )
Father Murder X


If the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu setup (or dual core gpu) what type of advantage if any would that be for developers? What would it mean for multi-plats? Would it trump the Ps4? What are the advantages/disadvantages of going this route? Again this is just rumor about it having sometype of dual gpu/dual core gpu setup.But from the start the rumors stated that they were developing their own gpu and not going with anything that was already out. Would this make the system harder to program for?



It would increase the chance of failure and everything else is unknown as you have not mentioned any specs.
sjaakiejj

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 8:06 AM ( #3 )
Father Murder X


If the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu setup (or dual core gpu) what type of advantage if any would that be for developers? What would it mean for multi-plats? Would it trump the Ps4? What are the advantages/disadvantages of going this route? Again this is just rumor about it having sometype of dual gpu/dual core gpu setup.But from the start the rumors stated that they were developing their own gpu and not going with anything that was already out. Would this make the system harder to program for?



That wouldn't make financial sense.. It's cheaper for Microsoft to use a single GPU than it is for them to use two GPUs at half the power to make up for the same performance.




or dual core gpu

The GTX680 has 1536 cores lol. A GPU Core really isn't all that powerful on its own, it's just very effective at performing a certain task. Use lots of them and you'll have a device that's incredibly good at parallel tasks. A dual core GPU would have terrible performance.
"I dont need to read Sonys technical crap, its for the fanboys who believe 6 year old tech is still some super computer lol. "


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FAT MAN GO BOOM

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 8:39 AM ( #4 )
Father Murder X


If the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu setup (or dual core gpu) what type of advantage if any would that be for developers? What would it mean for multi-plats? Would it trump the Ps4? What are the advantages/disadvantages of going this route? Again this is just rumor about it having sometype of dual gpu/dual core gpu setup.But from the start the rumors stated that they were developing their own gpu and not going with anything that was already out. Would this make the system harder to program for?





From the rumors I have heard there will be two Chips on CPU for playing games running the OS and  the bulk of all the work.


Than there will be a small chip that will when you turn the xbox off always stay on.  This chip will be used to download updates for games, os and what ever is in your download list.  Your system will look off but it will stay on in a low power form downing bits of data... So when ever you turn on the system it will always be up to date...


But again this is just rumors...


IF there is a 2nd GPU I would not know what they are doing with that it would be odd as someone said above you increase breakage of the system by adding a 2nd GPU and all around more complications.. 


they would be better off with a larger gpu than two smaller gpus...


I think it would be odd if they did that...


[ali
ichimaru

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 12:24 PM ( #5 )
Bladesfist


Father Murder X


If the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu setup (or dual core gpu) what type of advantage if any would that be for developers? What would it mean for multi-plats? Would it trump the Ps4? What are the advantages/disadvantages of going this route? Again this is just rumor about it having sometype of dual gpu/dual core gpu setup.But from the start the rumors stated that they were developing their own gpu and not going with anything that was already out. Would this make the system harder to program for?



It would increase the chance of failure and everything else is unknown as you have not mentioned any specs.

what? there are setups that function just fine with dual gpu's
  O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?- Jeremiah 4:14 False tears bring pai
ZoyosJD

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 1:27 PM ( #6 )
It would be fine for a console to use crossfire, because the ~50% loss of power on a second GPU is A PC optimization problem.

The PS4 is practically confirmed to have asymmetrical crossfire between it's 1.84TFLOP GPU and discrete GPU on the APU die. 

And from the specs it appears that the 8 core APU is actually just two 4 core APUs bolted together, possibly each with their own discrete GPU, which means crazy **** like 3-way (dual asymmetrical) crossfire in an environment that won't have a massive performance loss from going said route.

The 720 is expected to go a similar route, but I wouldn't be surprised if they tried for DDR4 (particularly to power kinect 2.0) and a more traditional CPU (or single APU) + GPU combo. 

Both systems are said to have extra smaller separate chips for any background tasks like downloads.

I really hope MS re-examines their approach if they really were going to try for 8-16 GB DDR3. 

Notes: 

GPUs are made for massively parallel computations and have many cores to perform these tasks, but each core performs relatively slowly.

CPUs are made for computations that must be made in an orderly manner so there are a few cores that are extremely fast. 

APUs are a combination a CPU and GPU (practically embedded onto the same space) and are considerably more efficient than more traditional approaches, but effectively comparable to half of each in terms of maximum power output. 

wishingW3L

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 2:33 PM ( #7 )
ZoyosJD stop making things up.


PS4 specs and architecture has already been confirmed. Yes it's true that the CPU is basically 2 APU CPUs together but it's paired with 1 GPU alone. Just because it will have 2 APU CPU working as 1 doesn't mean that both will have its own GPU. 


The PS4 will have a 3rd chip (and even a 4th one if I remember correctly to decode video without the help of the GPU) based on Arm to run the OS so the APU (which is 2 quad-cores paired with a GPU in the same die) will be only turned on for games. This is a really smart design when you think about it, because the OS, movies and all PSN features will play on their own dedicated low power chip which mean less heat and incredible power saving when not playing games. On top of it the APU will be 100% dedicated to games so developers will be able to squeeze every bit of performance out of it without having to worry about cross-game chat, in-game video chat, in-game menu, etc. 


And there's more, because the CPU and GPU are on the die I would even expect the console itself to be smaller than the current PS3 super slim. And not to mention that because they are on the same die the communication between them will be faster than having to connect to a northbridge, and all that is paired with unified high-speed memory. Which mean that GPGPU computation will be more efficient than the Wii U's or any other device including the PC. The PS4 architecture is so amazing it doesn't has bottlenecks like the PS3 had with the GPU and memory where the Cell was super powerful but could never be used to its fullest potential. Everything on the PS4 is completely balanced to not waste anything. Well.... The bottleneck will be the blu-ray's drive speed and the hardware itself due to its immense amount of memory if developers don't find uses to it. lol 

[but 1 thing is for sure, PS4 will be worth every penny and I think this is why MS has been so reluctant to show the next-Xbox. I bet they are making lots of last minute adjustments to the hardware right now by copying what they have seen of the PS4's HW architecture]




Full specs of the APU CPU here:


eight Jaguar cores at 1.6 Ghz, arranged as two clusters


Each cluster contains 4 cores and a shared 2MB L2 cache


256-bit SIMD operations, 128-bit SIMD ALU


SSE up to SSE4, as well as Advanced Vector Extensions (AVX)


One hardware thread per core


Decodes, executes and retires at up to two instructions/cycle


Out of order execution


Per-core dedicated L1-I and L1-D cache (32Kb each)


Two pipes per core yield 12,8 GFlops performance


102.4 GFlops for system (Cell =  230.4 GFlops)


<message edited by wishingW3L on Friday, March 29, 2013 5:49 PM>
Irishguy95

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 3:03 PM ( #8 )
Is Blu Ray's speed problem not fixed by now? Serious question I know **** all about disk drive speed, but I thought the Ps3's one was slow as **** because of its time.
DaThreats

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 3:06 PM ( #9 )
Irishguy95


Is Blu Ray's speed problem not fixed by now? Serious question I know **** all about disk drive speed, but I thought the Ps3's one was slow as **** because of its time.



It's 3x faster


We do not know 100% of the hardware though and can be subject to change. I think it was the Witcher 3 devs that said SONY hasn't announced all it's tricks yet.

Letros

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 3:14 PM ( #10 )
Only reason I can see a Dual GPU setup being used is for 3D. Developers would be allowed to flip the 3D switch and not have to sacrifice anything. Then maybe down the road MS would allow the second GPU to be used for 2D only games, giving the console have more longevity. Although 3D is as good as dead...
<message edited by Letros on Friday, March 29, 2013 3:16 PM>
 
coolbeans

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 3:18 PM ( #11 )
Letros



Although 3D is as good as dead...



...until Avatar 2 and 3 come out and we have to go through the fad all over again.  


Sigh...stupid Cameron.  



NeverEnding1989

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 4:31 PM ( #12 )
Father Murder X


If the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu setup (or dual core gpu) what type of advantage if any would that be for developers? What would it mean for multi-plats? Would it trump the Ps4? What are the advantages/disadvantages of going this route? Again this is just rumor about it having sometype of dual gpu/dual core gpu setup.But from the start the rumors stated that they were developing their own gpu and not going with anything that was already out. Would this make the system harder to program for?



Microsoft bested SONY this generation by having a technically inferior console, I see no reason why they wouldn't do the same next gen. I don't see Microsoft worrying about "trumping" the PS4.

Welcome to next gen:



ZoyosJD

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 5:58 PM ( #13 )
wishingW3L



And there's more, because the CPU and GPU are on the die I would even expect the console itself to be smaller than the current PS3 super slim. 

102.4 GFlops for system (Cell =  230.4 GFlops)


The early PS4 devkits were 3 times the size of the Wii U devkits when the controller leaked. It won't be a tiny package, probably twice the size of the WiiU, as that thing is compact as ****.

LOL...nice try, but those specs don't even touch on the Discrete GPU. The bottom of the barrel A-4 APU has over 230 GFLOPS between its CPU and GPU.


The discrete GPU on the A-10 5800k outputs over 600 GFLOPS by itself. 


Why would they cut out two GPUs and replace it with one? That makes no sense from a production standpoint particularly if they could sell one PS4 APU that is split in half for two mobile computing laptops, tablets, or later phones.



@neverending...the only thing MS "trumped Sony on was having a non-"alien" architecture. 


@letros...Really now, have a GPU siting there for something 95% of their audience won't use and then suddenly flip the switch so devs have to learn to program for it like there is new hardware mid-gen. That is quite literally the stupidest thing I've heard you say...signed the 4k gamer.
wishingW3L

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 5:58 PM ( #14 )
DaThreats


Irishguy95


Is Blu Ray's speed problem not fixed by now? Serious question I know **** all about disk drive speed, but I thought the Ps3's one was slow as **** because of its time.



It's 3x faster


We do not know 100% of the hardware though and can be subject to change. I think it was the Witcher 3 devs that said SONY hasn't announced all it's tricks yet.



The GPU is still under wraps, all we know about it is that it is capable of 1.8 Tflops and that is it. So if they still have hidden tricks they can only be related to the GPU, maybe the frequency of the CPU or just software related features.


But anyway, 2 dedicated cards on the next-Xbox? I want to see that! But something like that would increase the the cost of the console dramatically and not to mention the heat and power usage would be monstrous. 
Letros

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 6:32 PM ( #15 )
ZoyosJD


@letros...Really now, have a GPU siting there for something 95% of their audience won't use and then suddenly flip the switch so devs have to learn to program for it like there is new hardware mid-gen. That is quite literally the stupidest thing I've heard you say...signed the 4k gamer.


You're a slow one. I said it was the only possible reason I could see MS using a dual GPU, it was a far fetched reason for a far fetched idea. Who pissed in your cheerios this morning, oh wait, every morning.
 
Coming from you, a guy who has no clue how hardware operates, (resolution doesn't use VRAM thread), the insults don't mean much bro.
<message edited by Letros on Friday, March 29, 2013 6:39 PM>
 
ZoyosJD

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 7:49 PM ( #16 )
Letros
 

ZoyosJD
 

@letros...Really now, have a GPU siting there for something 95% of their audience won't use and then suddenly flip the switch so devs have to learn to program for it like there is new hardware mid-gen. That is quite literally the stupidest thing I've heard you say...signed the 4k gamer. 
 

You're a slow one. I said it was the only possible reason I could see MS using a dual GPU, it was a far fetched reason for a far fetched idea. Who pissed in your cheerios this morning, oh wait, every morning. 
  
Coming from you, a guy who has no clue how hardware operates, (resolution doesn't use VRAM thread), the insults don't mean much bro. 
 


Resolution has minimal impact compared to FOV which is why 4k runs just as smoothly if not better than a triple monitor setup, which was the point I was making at the time, bro.

If you don't even believe that the initial idea is possible why even speculate on the specifics of it. Why not call everyone a peasant and get on with your happy day, kay.

Look man, if you doubt it, I get that. But with innumerable sources confirming an APU and GPU just like a recent and similarly convenient example of the PS4, you should take into consideration a) the fact that it is likely and b) that there are better reasons particularly if the competition has put it to good use.

I don't always try to be an ***hole; It kinda comes with the job considering the **** I've seen. Honestly, this is calm.
wishingW3L

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 10:47 PM ( #17 )
talking about the X720 looks at this chart from Nvidia:








http://www.4gamer.net/games/209/G020984/20130330001/


They think the gap in performance between the PS4 and X720 will be as big as the PS2 vs the Xbox.  


But the most interesting part is that the Titan, a $1000 GPU, is only 3x times stronger than the PS4!
<message edited by wishingW3L on Friday, March 29, 2013 10:49 PM>
Kon

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 11:04 PM ( #18 )
Xbox will definitely be the strongest console next gen. And i have proof.
Stop Cyberbullying!

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DaThreats

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 11:36 PM ( #19 )
Kon


Xbox will definitely be the strongest console next gen. And i have proof.



Show me

ZoyosJD

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Re:What does it mean if the Xbox 720 does have a dual gpu or dual core gpu setup - Friday, March 29, 2013 11:52 PM ( #20 )
Kon


Xbox will definitely be the strongest console next gen. And i have proof.



I know your doing your usual minimal word stealth trolling, but I would like to see a technical masterpiece of console hardware using DDR4 and GDDR6 in late 2014 from MS, but alas they likely won't be willing to wait that long from a business perspective, and might still be too expensive.


If they could cut the price of LIVE out, have reliable hardware on that level, and start handing out exclusives like back in 06-07...I would consider another console for next gen.


If they don't have all three, I don't want to hear from them, because that will just mean more games or DLC that will be temporarily unavailable.


So, do weave your intricate tale of chicane; set before thine eyes the perfidious collusion of Microsoft's nefarious intents.
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